Wegen picks in UK again

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Postby Teddy Dupont » Tue May 26, 2009 9:49 am

My comments were not meant as a criticism Cabo; simply a statement of the way in which this forum is perceived. Our friend justjack has said elsewhere that hardly anyone posts here anymore because every thread descends into a dirty jock. It may not be true but that is the perception.

I think it is nice to have a bit of humour about the place rather than be talking relentlessly and earnestly about wood grains, rest strokes, bridges or highly repetitive licks as if they are all world shattering issues.

Caballero wrote:
This forum is more relaxed with interesting things cropping up from time to time, I like it.
I agree but there are just not enough of them.

Caballero wrote:And, I must say, this thread regarding plectra has kept me coming back for more!
I think the medical term is "brain dead". :D
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Postby Caballero » Tue May 26, 2009 9:54 am

:D wow! the loving hands of gypsyjazz can reach out and touch you at any time!
Whilst writing these last two posts, I realised my morning esspresso had done it's job so off I trotted to do mine. Passing my front door, I noticed that postie had visited, opening the package I see that Denis has sent me a copy of his new dvd ' Jazz Manouche in the style of Wawau Adler'. I'm looking forward to giving that a spin! Thank you Denis! just the guitar to come now.....
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Postby Captain Swing » Tue May 26, 2009 10:59 am

I tried that Djangobooks forum mostly because it was utterly dead on here, but i did find the place a little dry to say the least.
I made a few comments on the importance of trying to develop your ear, as opposed to relying on books & tab etc... for absolutely everything ever. But ironically enough, it fell on deaf ears. :wink: (Jack did speak to me though!) 8)
I suppose it's 'coz i'm old school. I'm of the generation where the way you learned stuff was to keep putting the needle back over the same bit of the record, or constantly rewinding the tape until you'd got it. I can't read music, & i can only read tab at such a painfully slow rate that it's actually quicker for me to put the CD on work something out by ear. I suppose 'coz that's the way i've always done it from day one.
There was a perfect example of what rankles me just before the old Hot Club UK forum died, to be replaced by this one. Some popped up asking if anybody had a chord chart for a track (can't remember which one) off the first Romane & Rosenberg CD. He loved this track & couldn't stop listeninng to it apparently, but was saying how he'd searched all over the net, but no-one seemed to've done a tab for it.
The solution to me seemed obvious! Get your fucking lugholes round it! :lol: So anyway, i eventually worked the chords out off the CD myself, & it took me longer to type the fucking post than it did to work out the actual chords.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to blow my own trumpet over all this, but i do a bit of teaching to supplement my meagre gigging income, & it seems that everyone i come into contact with relies totally on tab, mags, books etc.... I'm not trying to take a luddite approach with helpful learning tools, but it seems like no-one wants to work anything out for themselves anymore, & yet training your ear is of huge benefit to a musician in my experience/opinion.

Anyway, i seem to've side-tracked myself into a bit of a rant. :lol: It's just how that Djangobooks forum comes across. I never knew you could over-analyse even rhythm guitar (or 'La Pompe' as everyone seems to call it over there) to such an intense degree. But then the forum is run by someone who's in business to sell books on all this sort of thing, so i suppose that's where the emphasis is going to be.
Needless to say, they haven't even got a forum set aside for general banter, let alone one called "Taking the Piss". ;)
Last edited by Captain Swing on Tue May 26, 2009 11:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Thrip » Tue May 26, 2009 11:01 am

Teddy Dupont wrote:
Thrip wrote:One of the things that killed this forum was people's intolerance to gear threads.
Then let it die. Djangobooks does that in abundance.


Ouch!

The thing is, although I agree about Djangobooks in that there are way too many gear threads and it's all a bit serious, they do have some interesting discussions too. You're just not going to find a forum that discusses how wonderful Django is to the exclusion of everything else.


Teddy Dupont wrote: I can remember you getting very tetchy because someone said something nasty (unjustifiably so) about one of your posts.


Yes, I am a rather sensitive artiste, aren't I?. Which one was that?

Teddy Dupont wrote:To me this hardware obsession sucks the life out of the music. I can accept it is a part of the genre but not that it should dominate it or people's thinking about it.


What do you think of this video of Rene Thomas?:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA0phKL1djQ
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Postby Thrip » Tue May 26, 2009 11:08 am

Captain Swing wrote: I'm of the generation where the way you learned stuff was to keep putting the needle back over the same bit of the record, or constantly rewinding the tape until you'd got it. I can't read music, & i can only read tab at such a painfully slow rate that it's actually quicker for me to put the CD on work something out by ear. I suppose 'coz that's the way i've always done it from day one.


I'm exactly the same, I started learning Django style by the old rewind the cassette method, and I still think it's easily the best way to learn (if you haven't got a good teacher, I suppose). It does seem strange that people don't even think of this if no chart is available.
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Postby Captain Swing » Tue May 26, 2009 11:14 am

Thrip wrote:It does seem strange that people don't even think of this if no chart is available.


I wonder if it ever occurs to people how the chart is worked out in the first place! :D
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Postby Caballero » Tue May 26, 2009 11:53 am

I've been trying to find the music/tab melody to Minor Swing everywhere, can someone post it please?
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Postby Captain Swing » Tue May 26, 2009 11:58 am

:lol:

The best one i heard was Gary Potter doing 'Major Swing'. 8)
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Postby pinkgary » Tue May 26, 2009 12:17 pm

There's just a different dynamic between the forums. Both are worth reading i think, just for different reasons. The same way you have some friends you invite to dinner, to chat & stimulate ideas & original conversation, & other friends you go & get pissed with & lech over girls. Neither is better than the other, just different.

I personally get more excited by plectrum chat & how to get the best sound out of my guitar amplified than i do by old photos of people i've never heard of, or even ones i have. In this day & age it is far more relevant (and important) to me to learn how to get a decent amplified sound, than say to watch some dodgy footage of Django getting into a car in New York... But i do both quite happily.

As for ears.....

Well, i can learn a Django song in 10 mins if i have the TAB. When i transcribed When Day Is Done, (not the hardest or fastest, but one of the best, which is why i picked it), it took me 11 hours!!!!! So you can see why i'm in favour of TAB, but also you can see, that i need to work on my ears far more than i need to work on my reading skills.. If there's a piece i want to learn, the first thing i do is try & find a sheet or TAB or what have you, & then if i can't, i'll try & transcribe it. But i know what's more effort for me. Saying that, recently i've been a bit stricter with myself, & i will now try & transcribe things first, then check them against any sheets that are available, 'cos i know that's the only way my ears will improve. Just Jack seems able to find any tune anywhere apparently, so i know it's only a matter of time, even if i'm really struggling to get something down, there is another (and in my opinion easier) way.

It's just that easier isn't always best .....
Keep music Evil
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Postby Captain Swing » Tue May 26, 2009 1:08 pm

pinkgary wrote:lech over girls


Girls........ Yeah, i vaguely remember them. :lol:

I certainly take your point about the length of time it can take to work stuff out. Not that i've worked out a whole Django solos anyway. Just bits and pieces of his ideas that i can try to use in my own way. But the majority of the chord sequences i've work out myself, apart from the ones you get shown by others at Samois or whatever.
That was another point i tried to make over on Djangobooks was about trying to do something of your own with the music. Even if it's not awesome technically. So long as it swings & sounds ok, you're still giving something that's unique to yourself.
Maybe after 18yrs a lot of the novelty of hearing Django solos being toited out has worn off. To the point where there's nothing more dull to me now than getting involved in a jam & having to listen to someone churn out Django's solo to 'Dark Eyes' or 'I'll See You In My Dreams' or whatever, again. It's great, but we've heard it all before a thousand times. I'd rather hear what the individual player brings to the table, no matter what level or standard they perceive themselves to be at. I don't care if it's not brilliant, but i do get sick of hearing the same Django/Clonenberg stuff sometimes.
It's probably why after all this time, Bireli is still the one i listen to more than anyone else. Even when he was 12 he was improvising & playing his own stuff.
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Postby stublag » Tue May 26, 2009 1:49 pm

Theres nothing wrong in learning django solos note for note as long as you don't do it parrot fashion and use it as a springboard for your own ideas--i play quite a few solos of Django for no other reason than they are superb pieces of music and it gives me pleasure.
Its pretty obvious to me that Bireli learned many Django solos note for note-i remember a Downbeat article about Bireli in 1985 where he stated he knew 200 Django solos off by heart.
Although Bireli rarely plays a complete Django solo his own solos are packed full of Djangos ideas
The main challenge of reproducing Django solos is not the notes but the timing-making every note swing.
I think after awhile you absorb his ideas and you start to own them yourself.
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Postby pinkgary » Tue May 26, 2009 2:00 pm

Yeah...

I learn his solos to get inspiration, i've never played anyone else's solos in public, i don't quite get that. In such a creative medium, that invites you to be yourself, like any form of improvised music, why would you play someone else's solo. The whole fun for me is making stuff up as i go..


As for the '47 solo to Dark Eyes, don't get me started.....
Keep music Evil
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Postby Captain Swing » Tue May 26, 2009 2:04 pm

stublag wrote:Theres nothing wrong in learning django solos note for note as long as you don't do it parrot fashion and use it as a springboard for your own ideas


Very true. Perhaps i've heard to much parroting.

stublag wrote:Its pretty obvious to me that Bireli learned many Django solos note for note-i remember a downbeat article about Bireli in 1985 where he stated he knew 200 Django solos off by heart.


Yeah, i heard him playing around with Django's 'I'll See You In My Dreams' solo on his Strat at Chez Fernand back around '95, (i think), but of course putting his own ideas in to give it a totally new slant.*
Which underlines your previous point about not regurgitating it parrot fashion, which apart from 'Dark Eyes' on '15', i don't think Bireli has ever really done. Which was kinda my original point in using him as an example.

*ETA... I'm fairly sure i've got it on cassette somewhere, but i haven't got a cassette player anymore, or i could convert it & put in online.
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Postby Caballero » Tue May 26, 2009 3:39 pm

I've got that session as well, Pete gave me all his old cassettes and vids before he buggered off to Spain. I remember that evening well, we all stalked Bireli as he wandered pissed from session to session, ending up in Chez Fernand. I just never seem to have the time to transfer stuff to digital mode and there's some fine stuff here. Loads of Fapy stuff, Dorado etc. You must have a lot of that? I think he got a great deal of it from you.
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Postby Captain Swing » Tue May 26, 2009 4:49 pm

Caballero wrote:You must have a lot of that? I think he got a great deal of it from you.


Actually, i'm pretty sure the cassette stuff was what Pete recorded himself, But the video stuff he got via me, but some of that originally came from a couple of the Liverpool guys, like Steve Cronin who filmed a lot of stuff.
I remember the first year i went to Samois in '92 on the coach from Liverpool, Loads of great stuff filmed both on & off stage, incuding a cracking jam between Romane & the then 12yr old Jimmy Rosenberg, & also a fair bit of Gary Potter with both those two.
I remember blagging the original video before the the guys even got it back to Liverpool, on the basis that i had two videos linked together, & would copy it & send up to them via Recorded Delivery within 24hrs.
Those were the days! :lol:
The Samois '94 stuff (Romane, Dorado, Nolan, etc...) is super quality, & was filmed by a mate of mine who has since died, sadly. And i also have some stuff from '95 & '96 (? - again not hot the actual year after all this time) of various people, including Bireli, Christian Escoudé, Raphael Fays, Angelo DeBarre, etc... All stuff that i copied for Pete, so you must now have it somewhere on video.
I've got some of the best video footage transferred to dvdr, along with some other stuff like Jimmy & Angelo at Upton Jazz, (not at the same time) & also some cracking stuff from Holland '91 & '92. (Stochelo, Bireli, Jimmy etc...) I can burn discs easily enough, so let me know if you want any. :wink:
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